Listen in as former American Airlines CEO Doug Parker and his wife Gwen join the podcast to discuss Breaking Down Barriers, their nonprofit which is inspiring people to pursue pilot careers.
Doug is the recipient of this year's L. Welch Pogue Award for Lifetime Achievement in Aviation which will be presented by Aviation Week and the International Aviation Club of Washington D.C. on Sept. 10.
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AI-Generated Transcript
Karen Walker (00:10):
Hello everyone, and thank you for joining Window Seat Aviation Week Air Transport Podcast. I'm ATW and Aviation Week, Air Transport Editor-in-Chief, Karen Walker. Welcome on board. Now this week, I am absolutely delighted to be joined by two extraordinary people with long legacies in the air transport industry, and they are Doug and Gwen Parker, who are joining me from their Texas home. Gwen, Doug, welcome and thank you so much for joining Window Seat.
Gwen Parker (00:37):
Thank you. Thanks, Karen. Thank you for having us.
Karen Walker (00:40):
You're very welcome. Now, Doug, of course, is the former chairman and CEO of American Airlines from where he retired after a 35-year career in the industry that included being CEO at America West, from where he oversaw the mergers, first with US Airways and then with American. As you'll hear in a minute, he's far from sitting still and remains very connected to the industry, sitting on the boards of Qantas Airways and Lesser Aircap. Gwen is a philanthropic leader and a former flight attendant at American who actively contributes to multiple nonprofit organizations. And together, they have founded an aviation nonprofit called Breaking Down Barriers, and that's going to be the main focus of our conversation today. Before we start, however, I must also add an important detail. Doug has been named the 2026 recipient of the L. Welsh Pogue Award, which honors leaders who have helped shape and transform the air transport industry.
(01:44):
And that is certainly true of Doug. So I offer, first and foremost, my sincere congratulations. That award will be presented on September 10th in Washington DC at Agala, co-hosted by the International Aviation Club of Washington and Aviation Week. So Gwen, Doug, let's start with you both telling us a little bit about this Breaking Down Barriers Foundation. When did you start this, why, and what are the key goals?
Doug Parker (02:14):
Thanks, Karen. I mean, the key goal is to help underrepresented individuals become airline pilots. And we believe if we do that, it'll be more than just transformed to their lives, but to their communities. So let me explain a little more.You ask where the genesis of it was. And for me, it was my last couple years at American, we had this pilot shortage. And honestly, for the first time in my career, I really had to do a better job of understanding how pilots were produced. For the most part, they showed up at our airlines and we tried to get the best of the best of those who applied. We suddenly didn't have enough in the pipeline, and it led to me learning more about it. What I learned was, of course, it's very hard as it should be, but it's also, we exclude a lot of people from the process.
(03:05):
There are barriers in their way, primarily because of the cost. It's unlike a four-year education. There's no federal loan program where you can get the cost of your pilot training funded. And it's pretty expensive. I mean, it's $100,000 about just to get through your training and you got to go build hours, but just to get your certificates. And the training can run up to $100,000. So as you might imagine, that excludes a lot of people and it excludes a whole class of socioeconomics that results in another barrier, which is awareness. I mean, people in these communities don't even know this might be a possibility, something they could do because they don't see anybody that does it.
(03:48):
And look, and as long as that's the case, it's always going to be the case. I mean, there was nothing. The airlines are trying to do things and doing really good things, by the way, to make it easier for people to afford it, but they still have to know it exists and they've got to get themselves up to where they already have a private pilot's license and things like this that the people we're talking to would never have any ability to do that because they wouldn't know it was possible. So it's about awareness and it's about providing the financial resources, and that's what we're doing. And we're off and running. We've been doing it from the time I retired. We established a foundation. We hired this amazing woman who was running United's ABA program named Dan Denati to be our CEO. And so that's the story and a lot more to come, but so far so good.
Karen Walker (04:35):
Gwen, can I just ask you, again, you've got firsthand experience, long experience in airline operations and you see that front line and you've also been long involved in a lot of nonprofits. I mean, let's not give Doug all the credit here. What was your thinking when you were looking at creating this? What was driving you?
Gwen Parker (05:02):
Well, so for me, it's about the community, the community that these kids are coming from, the community that they love and will stay in. And the exciting part to me is that these students will go back into their community. They're going to have a thriving career that will create generational wealth. And I believe that you get enough people like that in an underserved community, well, that community gets uplifted and the schools get better, amenities in the community become more prevalent. And I just feel like it's bigger than being a pilot.
Karen Walker (05:48):
That's a very interesting statement. How much of a need is there still to grow the commercial airline pilot pool in the US and beyond?
Doug Parker (06:00):
Well, there's always going to be a need because of retirements and growth, but that shortage largely has gone away at this point. There's not the same efforts underway. And look, when that story I talked about, we knew back then we were going to find the pilots. What Gwen and I are doing isn't about creating more people that can be pilots, it's getting the best of the best, and you can't get the best of the best if some people are excluded. So it's about letting those who don't have the opportunity, have the opportunity. They got to do all the work, of course. But yet this is much less actually not at all about trying to help airlines have pilots. They can find pilots. This is about making sure that everyone that has the ability to do it and the desire to do it has the opportunity to do it.
Karen Walker (06:49):
Right. So you mentioned Dana. Dana's your CEO, correct? Yes, she is. The foundation CEO. And I believe Dana is going to be at the Pogue Gala next week, so it's going to be fantastic to meet her and hear her story too. But can you just tell us a little bit about the rest of your leadership team and partners for this organization?
Doug Parker (07:10):
Sure. We are lean and mean. Dana's our CEO and she's everything else. She really is just phenomenal. I'm looking forward to getting to know her. So she does it all. She doesn't have an office. She works -
Gwen Parker (07:25):
Anywhere.
Doug Parker (07:26):
She works anywhere. Exactly. We have one employee who is one of our students who is now a certified flight instructor, but now he's gotten through his training and is building his hours and he's helping us as he does that. So we have another employee, but that's the team really. We have a bevy of volunteers of airlines, airline pilots who are gracious enough and care enough about this that they just volunteer their time and they help these students through the process.
Gwen Parker (07:58):
They're mentors.
Doug Parker (07:59):
Yeah, mentors, sorry. Anyway, I can't stress how important that is for these individuals who know really nothing about this process and haven't grown up with it to have somebody, again, can't do the work for them by any means, but can help explain it to them and can answer questions for them. So we have a lot of mentors, primarily pilots from major airlines. We have on our board some people you would know, I recruited Elise Everwein.
Karen Walker (08:29):
Elise, yes.
Doug Parker (08:30):
And Maya Liebman, who of my former colleagues at American who also have a passion for this are on our board. You may remember the flight attendant that I had the encounter with on Southwest Airlines Flight, Jacque Hill Sullivan. She's on our board. She's fantastic. And just other board members who have run nonprofits in the community are helpful to us. Partners, we have flight schools, Spartan Flight Academy out here in Grand Prairie, Parish Aviation at Dallas Executive, Texas Women's University. So we don't do the training. Those places do the training. We fund the training. We fund 100% of it, by the way. I mean, these students have to figure out how to live on their own while they're doing all this work, but we fund that $100,000 for each of the individuals.
Karen Walker (09:20):
Wow, that's an amazing thing to be able to offer. As you say, it's an expensive business and this organization has barriers in the name and certainly money is a big barrier when it's $100,000. Can I also ask, is diversity an issue that you're also trying to. I'll be honest, I fly a lot, I do, and there's still a lot of. There's nothing wrong here. They're great pilots, but there's a lot of, shall we say, white male pilots out there. Is diversity an issue as well that you're trying to transcend?
Doug Parker (10:01):
Well, yeah, in some sense. Again, I would go back to, it's more about socioeconomics. So it's more about the ability to pay. That of course lends itself to some diversity and just because of the socioeconomics of our country. But it's less about that, Karen. Our criteria are these for. Although I do think that diversity's really important, I don't want to dismiss it, but our criteria for finding candidates are, first, you could not possibly do this without us. This is just not something you would ever be able to do without breaking down barriers. And that excludes a lot of people. A lot of people want to be pilots, but they can figure out their way through the process over time. They have means and they'll figure it out. So that matters. Second, of course, you have to be able to do it. This is a really difficult job.
(10:53):
There's a reason that there aren't a lot of people that do it. It's because it takes a lot of training. You have to be intelligent and you have to have the right mentality. So we have a couple of tests that we give individuals that Dana used through a firm at United to make sure that they can actually do it if we put them in the program. And then third, they have to agree that they're going to give back, that they understand they're getting something that's really important, and when they get through it, they're going to give back to their community. As Gwen said, that's going to make this really transformational. It's not that we're going to have X number of students, we're going to have X number of students multiplied by some exponent of people that they can go influence over time. And that's really, really important to us.
(11:40):
So our hope is, and I'm certain it's true because all these students have committed to it, is that once they get through this, they're not going to go live out in some nice community by the airport even though they can afford to. They're going to go stay in their communities and make a difference there. And they're doing things now, by the way. I mean, we're off with Dana's leadership, started up a program called Captain Your Life where our students are going out and helping. We had a camp this summer where some high school individuals and younger came out and went through a camp and our students were there teaching them things about piloting, flying drones and things and talking about and putting them in the simulator that we have. So anyway, all those things are coming together to make it so that, again, I don't want to dismiss diversity.
(12:30):
Look, it's a diverse group, but the criteria are those, but it's females, it's people of color, is primarily what we're attracting because I do think it's important. I do think it's important that people see people that look like them in jobs that they can do. And if they don't have that, we're going to be in this situation for a long time. And again, what that means is you're not getting
Karen Walker (12:56):
The best people. That's a really important note actually. It's important to see people that look like them. When you think particularly kids at the gate and getting a bit antsy and all the rest of it, but if they see a pilot that looks like something they can recognize, whether that's a woman or a person that's the same color as them, there's a certain sort of element of like, "Oh, that's interesting as a kid."
Doug Parker (13:25):
Yeah. It hit me just the other day. We had a really nice event out at Envoy. Envoy, the airline that is one of the owned subsidiaries of American that flies and the CEO of Envoy is an amazing guy named Pedro Fabergas. Pedro came and spoke and he talked to our students and he was fantastic. But after that, one of our students who is Hispanic as is Pedro came up to me and said, "Can I talk to Pedro some more?" I said, "Well, I don't know. He's gone back to his office. I'll see if I can find him." But then he said to me, he goes, "People always say when you see someone like you doing something that you want to do, it makes a big difference." He goes, "And this is the first time it's ever happened to me." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." It's incredibly important and we shouldn't ignore it at a time that people are arguing about whether or not we should be hiring people because of DEI.
(14:17):
I would argue of course we should. Again, it's the best of the best thing, but it also matters to the individuals that don't see people that look like them in roles like airline pilots or CEOs of airlines.
(14:33):
Once they have that, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for them.
Gwen Parker (14:37):
Well, and I'd just like to add quickly too, Doug has said this a number of times, and you can say it again because he'll say it better than me, but there is no DEI pilot hire. There just isn't. They've all gone through the same training. They've all gotten the same certifications. I mean, it's just something. You don't get pushed through, you don't get passed through. So as far as DEI goes, none of that is going on in the cockpit.
Doug Parker (15:06):
Yeah, really good point, Gwen. Yeah, it's really annoying when you hear people say things like that. And again, stuff that I knew back then, but I know really now watching it happen, I can't think of another profession that is more qualitatively, objectively that you have to pass the test than an airline pilot, except maybe a professional athlete. If you can't hit, you can't play in the majors and you'll get thrown out. If you can't pass these tests, there's no favoritism, no one hands you the answers. You have to be able to do it and it's hard and it takes a lot of work, but if they can do it, they certainly should be given the opportunity.
Karen Walker (15:44):
It's interesting because it's measurable. Isn't it? It's a career that's actually measurable, very high standards, very high rules and criteria, and then it has to be consistent. So that person has to have the mental attitude that just says, "Not only am I going to meet or surpass those criteria, but I'm going to keep doing it time and time again."
Doug Parker (16:07):
Right. So anybody suggesting that a black pilot is some DEI hire is ignorant and offensive to that person because they've worked so hard to get there and they couldn't have possibly gotten there because someone wanted to help them, they do it themselves.
Karen Walker (16:23):
And it sounds also from what you said earlier that hearing what you were saying about some of your early students getting involved in telling that story. So there's a sort of pass it on attitude, yes? Do you have good stories to tell on that in terms of success stories, if you like so far?
Gwen Parker (16:43):
Should I tell my Zahad story?
Doug Parker (16:45):
Please.
Gwen Parker (16:46):
So we have this one student, he was one of our early. I guess he was in our second class of students. And he, as Doug noted earlier, they're all working and then they do this flying and that flying school work when they can. So Zahad works at the high school that he graduated from. I'm not really sure what his job is, but he interacts with the kids a lot, the other students there. And this one young man named Nick went up to him one day and he said, "I see you every morning out there flying," because he's got some sort of flight app on his phone where he can track people flying. So he's been tracking Zahad and every morning Zahad, before he goes to work at school, he gets up and he takes his aviation lessons. And this young man, Nick, has taken a shine to it.
(17:45):
He's fascinated with what Zahad's doing, and now it's something that he's interested in possibly doing for himself. So right there, our mission is working because it's being paid forward. But the camp that we offered this summer, Nick signed up for it and Dana, who our CEO, also ran the camp, and Nick was just a star. So it's just fun to see the mission working. I will tell you, it put extra pride in Zahad's work as well because he now knows this student from his school is paying attention. It's really an awesome experience.
Doug Parker (18:28):
It's exactly what we want to happen, and it' happened. You see it's a small scale right now, but it just works. It's coming full circle.
Karen Walker (18:35):
It's coming full
Doug Parker (18:36):
Circle.
(18:37):
Another quick similar type full circle. One of our students who's gotten through the one who's working for us, he's a certified flight instructor now, he just gave the check ride to one of our students who needed to get for his private lesson. But here's someone we just had in the instructor, we can't arrange this. The instructor was Shaquille, who gave him the check ride. It's like, oh, this is just so great to watch. Someone who had no chance of doing this two years ago is now giving check rides to someone else, and that one means a lot more to him than the ones that he does for others.
Karen Walker (19:20):
Yeah, that's all to do then with a level of passion and dedication that these people have. It takes it to that next level. Forgive me for saying this, but I think here's a couple, you probably both have jet fuel in your veins. Aviation is so long and embedded in you and seen it from so many different elements and viewpoints. But can I ask you with this aspect of your career here, any examples of what you've either learned or what you enjoy most about this aspect?
Gwen Parker (20:01):
Well, what I learned, and we didn't expect it, but I think, what do we have about 22 students now, something like that. We've created our own little community and family within our little Breaking Down Barriers group, and we do things with them, but they also, they have study sessions together. They've just created this little family within themselves to help each other get through it because it's hard. I mean, it actually seems impossible to me for anyone to get through the training. And so they're there to support each other. They text with each other, they'll ask each other questions. As far as I can see right now, these kids are competitive, but they're not competitive with each other. They want all of them to succeed. They want their breaking down barriers, brothers and sisters, to be out there on the line one day and giving each other a high five.
(21:05):
We kind of feel like we've created a little fraternity, if you will. So that's been an unexpected real treat for me.
Karen Walker (21:13):
Wonderful. Doug?
Doug Parker (21:15):
I guess what I've learned is this is a real opportunity. I mean, I kind of suspected it, that's why we started it, but it's been more meaningful than I even anticipated. It works. I mean, these individuals would not have been doing this, if not for breaking down barriers. Every one of them will tell you that, and they're all going to be airline bombed. One, it feels good, but it's like what that shows is there's this enormous need out there for things like this. We're really small. We feel good about what we're doing, but my gosh, there should be better ways for this to happen than for individuals to go figure out how to start a nonprofit and do it in their individual communities. I don't know why you can get a federal loan for a four-year degree in humanities and you can't get one for less than that to go learn to go get the training to become an airline pilot.
(22:18):
I don't know why we as - Yeah,
Karen Walker (22:21):
Which is a job that once you're doing it, you are helping economists and all sorts of other things as well, aren't you? I mean, you become part of a community because you're connecting people, but also trade and everything.
Doug Parker (22:35):
Precisely. And again, for good reason, pilots are really well paid. So there are all sorts of great work programs going on in and around Dallas and I'm sure all around the United States. And again, they're great, but none of them are, "Oh, do you want to be a partner in a law firm or a doctor?" Because that's really hard and expensive. But the pilots are paid like partners in law firms and doctors, and they can transform the communities. And you don't have to have that degree of schooling. Again, I'm by no means suggesting it's easy because it's not. You got to be really smart. You got to get through all this training, but if you can do that, you should be able to. And if we get enough people to do it, it'll be transformative. It shouldn't just be us working on it.
Gwen Parker (23:23):
Well, I was just going to say, when we talk about what we're doing, everybody gets interested. Everybody somehow wants to involve in any form that they may be able to do that. Tell them about the award we just won.
Doug Parker (23:38):
I'm sorry again.
Gwen Parker (23:39):
This is so exciting.
Doug Parker (23:41):
DCEO Magazine has an award for nonprofits which is nice of them to do. Dana got us nominated. It's in the education group of nonprofits.
Gwen Parker (23:52):
Social
Doug Parker (23:52):
Impact. Social Impact, thank you. And we were in the smaller group. Anyway, so we're in this big room, and as we get there, we're in the very back of the room, which doesn't sound good in an award ceremony. If you're in the very back, you're probably not going to get the award. So it's me and Gwen and Dana and
(24:11):
Jacque and our one employee. Anyway, we won and we screamed like we've just won an Oscar or something. But it was very exciting because this is recognition for the stuff we're doing. It's true what Gwen started with on this, which is people we talk to, really, it doesn't take long to people like, "Oh my God, this is a great idea. How come there isn't more of this? We agree. How come there isn't more of this?" It's not that difficult. It makes a lot of sense. And trust me, it works. I know because we're doing it and it's so dang rewarding to watch and in some sense infuriating that you have to go make it happen and that we don't make it easier.
Karen Walker (24:56):
But you did. Well, congratulations on that award. That's fantastic. Oh, thank you. It also very much sounds like you did tap into something that nobody was really aware of just what the need was until you did it, and then all of a sudden you realize, "Yeah, there's a need here." So good for you. Absolutely for you. Can I ask you one last thing, really just to talk to our audience here, which is of course a very aviation motivated audience. So anybody listening to this, how would you advise that they might get involved or best support the foundation?
Doug Parker (25:35):
Oh, thank you for that. First off, when I mentioned partners, I should have mentioned American Airlines. So far, I mean, you didn't ask, but we've funded this so far almost entirely, Gwen and I, and then a nice gift from American Airlines when I retired. We haven't done a whole lot of fundraising. We're getting to where we're going to want to because we're just going to get big enough and there is so much need that we want to do more. So first, that would be very helpful if anyone feels so compelled.
Karen Walker (26:04):
So basically donate, yes? Donate.
Doug Parker (26:06):
Yes, please donate. Thank you. Let's
Karen Walker (26:08):
Be straight about
Doug Parker (26:09):
It. Yes. Thank you, Karen. Sometimes I'm not good at the ask, but yes, donate, please. Breakingdownbarriers.org is the website. Yeah. Breakingdownbarriers.org is our website and you can contribute there. We would love that. We have Giving Day coming up here soon. Dana and team are working on it, but that would be wonderful. I said we have a lot of volunteers who help. We're always looking for more. Again, you can just reach out to Dana through that same website and do that. But yeah, donate would be great.
Karen Walker (26:44):
Wait, so you heard it straight from Doug there. Breakingdownbarriers.org, O-R-G, yes? And you'll find out all the information there. And yes, get involved. Do help. Doug Gwen, thank you so much for joining Window Seat. It's always a pleasure to see you both and talk to you, and I'm greatly looking forward to seeing you both in DC on September 10th at the Pogue Gala. So thank you again.
Gwen Parker (27:14):
Thank you for having us. It's been a treat.
Doug Parker (27:16):
Thanks, Karen. Very nice of you.
Karen Walker (27:18):
Thank you also to our producers, Andrea Copley-Smith and Natalia Peleo. And of course, a huge thank you to our listeners for following Window Seat. We love having you on board. Subscribe to Window Seat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode. And please do give us your feedback and a rating so we can deliver the programs you want to hear. This is Karen Walker, disembarking from Window Seat.
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