A captain with a major U.S. airline talks about his campaign to raise the commercial pilot age cap to 68 and shares his views on why unions oppose a change.

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Rush transcript: 

Karen Walker:

So hello everyone and thank you for joining us for Window Seat our Aviation Week Air Transport podcast. I'm Air Transport World and Group Air Transport editor-in-chief, Karen Walker. Welcome on board. Now, last week we had a discussion with couple of my editor colleagues, Aaron and Ben about the U.S. airline pilot shortage situation or, more specifically, why airlines and others see a pilot shortage situation, but the unions representing major pilot groups insist there is no shortage. Well, that whole debate generated a lot of interest and feedback from our audience and it led to a call that I received from an American Airlines captain, who specifically wanted to share more information about one of the discussion points, which is, why doesn't the U.S. raise the cap on the age at which commercial pilots must retire. Currently that's 65 years.

Karen Walker:

So I asked if this pilot would like to join me on this week's podcast and share his views on that issue and I'm absolutely delighted to say he accepted. So here we are. Hello. Let me introduce Captain Dan Goebel. Dan is a Captain with American with 35 years experience and more than 29,000 flight . . . under his belt. He's typed in the air by say three 20, a three 30 and the Boeing 737 and has a bachelor of science in aeronautical science. And he's the founder of the coalition for airline pilots, age 68 retirement campaign. Dan, welcome on board. Delighted that you could join us. Thank you for your time.

Dan Goebel

Oh, it's my pleasure, Karen. I listen to your podcast quite frequently and I respect your background and the way you disseminate your views. And that's why I reached out to you. It's nice to meet you.

Karen Walker:

And you delighted. Thank you. So Dan, let's start with the obvious question. Okay. How close are you to having to retire as a pilot under the current rules?

Dan Goebel:

I will be required to retire November the 27th will be the last day, this year that I will be eligible to and capable of commanding the A320 that I fly frequently. That will be the last day.

Karen Walker:

So it's fair to say that you've got a personal stake in this, in trying to see if we could get the rules changed. Probably not that quick, but I know that you're actively campaigning for this. So give us a little bit of background here. Has the mandatory airline pilot age always been 65 here in the U.S.?

Dan Goebel:

No, it has not, was 60 for quite some time. They passed... The age 60 rule actually took a hold in 1960, but the legislation had started to be formed in 1959, but essentially the 60 age rule was formed and mandated in 1960, it was raised and has to 65. It was done with the fair treatment for experienced pilot act that was signed into legislation back in 2007.

Karen Walker:

Does it require congressional legislation to make any changes?

Dan Goebel:

Yes, it does. I do believe that the secretary of transportation, our FAA report to him, the federal aviation administration, to the best of my knowledge, I've done quite a bit of research on this Karen. He could in fact raise it, but it was done before through Congress is the way it was done. And that's most likely the way it's going to be done this time as well.

Karen Walker:

So then looking outside of the U.S., do other countries require their airline pilots to retire at 65?

Dan Goebel:

No. In fact, Canada has no retirement age. They, in fact... They do have a union agreement. They ruled it unconstitutional, age discrimination, the courts in Canada, however they do, within the unions there, they do have certain age restrictions in the fact that some pilots, when they reach a certain age, 65 or 60, they need to come back as a first officer. But that's strictly a union arrangement that they have provided. Now Japan flies to 68 right now with no restrictions. In fact, there are nine other countries as well, that fly between 65 and 70 years of age.

Karen Walker:

So it's not like this is a universal standard the 65 years. So what's making things different here in the U.S. It does seem to me that there's a split here. If I'm listening correctly, all of the major unions representing pilots in the U.S. do not want to see or do not support raising the age cap. Am I reading that correctly?

Dan Goebel:

You are Karen. Let me explain, basically the union makeup in the U.S. We have ALPA, which is made up of the Airline Pilots Association, which is comprised of many of the cargo carriers, some of the majors and a lot of the regionals essentially, most all of them at this particular point. Now there are several other unions, the one that I am a member of Allied Pilots Association represent American airline. They call them in-house unions. Southwest has SWAPA, Southwest Pilots Association is an in-house union. So our two unions are not a member of the AFLCIO ALPA is. And to this point, right now SWAPA, Southwest pilots union, who I respect, actually took what I refer to as a rank and file vote on this issue. And I commend them for that. I commended them with their president. I told them, I thought it was the right thing to do.

Dan Goebel:

And that's what they did. Came out to be a 60, 40 vote on that 60 opposed and 40 for, which is fine. That's what we expected on the basis of age. However, the Allied Pilots Association, who represents me as I noted, have yet to take a rank and file vote. There's 20 board members. They're trying to hang their hat on the fact that they took it back in 2016 and that's what they're going with. They refuse to take it now. So we're going to have the coalition and the other group that I'm working with, raise the pilot age, we're seeking legal action for fair representation. And that also goes for ALPA. ALPA, their board members have refused to take a rank and file vote. So yes, the unions are opposed, but I can't answer your question on the actual number of pilots into percentage in which they are opposed. It's not black and white, it's not a hundred percent one way or the other.

Karen Walker:

I'm curious as to... It seems to me that there's probably a lot of pilots like yourself sort of nearing the 65 cap with great experience, physically fit. We all know that these days people are just getting healthier and living longer by and large. So why is it that these unions would oppose an age cap? What's the problem?

Dan Goebel:

It's for the progression, the fear of stalled career progression among the younger pilots. Of course, when you move from the right seat, which is referred to as the co-pilot or first officer over to the left, there is a significant pay raise, schedules increase, our whole network our whole work frame is based on seniority. It's the holy grail. So when the senior folks leave the others move up the ladder. So that's pretty much how that works. And it's sad to think that a union does not contain its core union values in representing all junior and senior. I've been involved in organizing a union, I helped bring output to the property many years ago with our commuter airlines. And I've always fought for both the junior pilot and senior pilot. And it breaks my heart on a personal level that they don't have that core union value. There's enough career progression there believe me, even with us being around. So yes, but that's the reason, that's pretty much the reason.

Karen Walker:

So what, on the other side, who are the people that are supporting an age cap change?

Dan Goebel:

Let me touch on this as well. I am one of the first faces to come out the raise the pilot age, which quite frankly, we are both working in tandem with this. We've got over 20,000. I don't want to call us members because we there's no membership due, but there's 20,000 of us that are all logged on to this and working together. But we're kind of in the shadows. It's kind of a funny thing in order to maintain a professional standard in a cockpit, this is a very controversial issue. We like to keep... I'll refer to this politics per se, out of the cockpit. And like I told you, I'm retiring in November. I'm willing to be one of the spokespersons for this. Of course, we've got quite a few women that are being discriminated in their career actually twice, once as a woman, and now with age discrimination, we've got pilots of color so they're feeling it twice. So they're my real crusaders.

Karen Walker:

And what about some outside of the industry, non pilots, but maybe other organizations? I might be wrong here, but I believe Senator Lindsey Graham, the South Carolina Senator, is potentially looking at proposing legislation. Are you getting people come to you from outside the industry looking to see if this is a change?

Dan Goebel:

Yes. Ironically, I actually started this and then put it on the back burner before COVID, the coalition of airline pilots age 68 retirement. I've got some things here if you were to read them that went something to this nature. I know these are trying times and we've got furloughs and our younger pilots are being furloughed, but these will change. And when it does, and ironically, this is exactly where we are here. So to answer your question is yes, there is some legislation in the works very much so I'm working closely with them.

Dan Goebel:

I'm not at liberty to give you specifics on it, but both on the Senate and how side there is. It saddens me because of the unions and the democratic party are afraid of just because the unions oppose it without really digging in on why, we are not gaining their support, but I'm not concerned about it. The 2007 legislation that passed, the vote was 390 to zero bipartisan. So I truly believe with public support and our logical argument that it will in fact pass again.

Karen Walker:

Now, what is getting a lot of headlines at the moment, of course, is all the disruptions and cancellations and delays that we're seeing in across airports and airlines. It's not uniquely American, they're having a lot of problems in Europe and the UK. And in both cases, there seem to be multiple causes. Part of it is the surge of people coming back, as you say, as things normalized from COVID and as things are trying to ramp up, operations to try to ramp up.

Karen Walker:

But one of the things that's been raised is that this could be part of the solution. If we could get that cap raised. There are also some other solutions that have been talked about that, by and large, I think the major unions are against. Can you talk a little bit about lowering the ATP minimum hours, for example, currently in America that's 1500 hours for a first officer, correct? And there's been some talks about lowering that. The unions seem very against that and say it would lower safety. Is that one of the things that could be part of this or is raising the age cap enough?

Dan Goebel:

Well, I think that role has changed Karen and it's not an ATP to be a first officer it's right, it was really raised after the Colgan crash with the formation of FAR 117, which has to do with rest requirements and the low time pilots that were involved in that incident, and so forth. That being said, I do not see that changing, and I really don't think it should.

Dan Goebel:

I've got quite a background in flight instruction. There's an argument that... There's a lot of push, particularly, this is where you're getting the push on that, it's from Brian Bedford who owns Republic airlines. He has literally put in hundreds of thousands of dollars because he can't get pilots to lobby to have that lowered. And I find it extremely bothersome, I find it unsafe, I'm going to go on records and say that now that I'm not qualified, I'm just basing this on my experience and I can do nothing more than that.

Dan Goebel:

I have no statistical analysis to back it up, but the unions are doing the right thing. They're doing it for a different reason. It's under the umbrella of safety, but it's to raise our salaries and to limit the flow coming in, they want to expedite the pilots leaving and reduce the ones coming in. So I can say that in good conscious, but the net result is no, absolutely not in my opinion, should that be. That rule was put there for a reason. They've already got waivers for it. And quite frankly, they're using too many of them because if you go through a 141 flight school, Republic's hiring first officers with as low as 750 hours that have come out of a 141 school, so that I don't agree with.

Karen Walker:

So then that takes you back to a solution that you believe is a good one that doesn't affect safety, and that's raising the age cap. Are there any other thoughts that you feel should take into consideration of changes, bearing in mind that some of the disruptions we're seeing it's a short term problem, but then it's also a long term problem about growing enough pilots as airlines get back onto growth tracks.

Dan Goebel:

Yes. You know, it is. Let me tell you, airlines it's difficult to expand and contract. COVID did it this time. I've been around for quite some time. I've seen it happen during nine 11, recessions. It's very difficult for airlines to train. It's expensive to keep pilots who are not using. So to answer your question, yes, this right now, I see as it's not going to stop all the cancellations, but it will certainly mitigate them. We're literally losing thousands of pilots a month right now, because a lot of us were hired during the eighties boom. We are literally losing thousands a month right now. Now that's going to taper off. That will taper off after a couple of years, because we'll all be gone and the ages will stream out. They'll be linear. It's not going to be a problem. And that'll give the younger pilots, newer pilots time to come in and train.

Dan Goebel:

So I see this as a short term. I think it's going to work itself out. I truly do. I think this will not be an issue in two to three years. I think there'll be enough younger pilots coming in. I don't even think... I mean, they're allowing opportunities, I came up through the civilian side. I built those flight hours myself. I came out of modest means out of Baltimore. So the opportunity is there for those that want to do it, but you have to stick with it because I stuck with it through tough times when a lot of my colleagues chose to become, quite frankly, some lawyers and some other things when we were getting furloughed.

Karen Walker:

Another thing I'd just like to ask you, again related to the disruptions that people are experiencing right now, in your view, did the early retirements that many pilots took at the worst time of COVID when they were looking for voluntary, early retirements, did that worsen the shortage now?

Dan Goebel:

It did. Can I say one thing? It was a trying time for us all back then. The unions strongly encouraged... So right now they're throwing their hands up in the air and saying the airlines shouldn't have done it. I've got documentation that they strongly urged the airlines to do just that, in order to keep the junior pilots on the property, I applaud them for that. I think they should take ownership. That's what unions do. So, yes it did expedite and manifest this into a higher level than it would've normally been. We lost, I don't know an exact number, but we did. We lost a fair amount, probably about a 10%, 10 15% that could have helped alleviate this problem we have right now. But the unions need to take ownership for that because they requested the airlines to do it. So I ask them if you would be... If you ever get a union leader on your podcast, ask him that question.

Karen Walker:

Well, we'll try for that. Then Dan, you may prompt somebody to actually talk to us. If any of them are listening, they would be welcome to join us. Dan, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it, it's been great chatting with you and to get to know you a bit and I wish you every success. And personally, I hope that we will find ways to keep people like you on board. Thank you so much.

Dan Goebel:

Karen. It has been an absolute pleasure.

Karen Walker:

And thank you to our listeners. I hope you'll join us again next week and make sure you don't miss us by subscribing to the window Seat Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Until then this is Karen Walker, disembarking from Window Seat.