Aviation Week & Space Technology

Podcast: Protectionist Threat to Aviation?

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on Oct 12, 2017

I rather tend to think that Boeing's game plan is to force Bombardier to sell out ... to Boeing, obviously. The CS is in a critical marketing phase, and if Boeing's sowing of FUD stops orders, the pressure will be on the Canadian and Quebec governments to recoup their investment by selling. The NAFTA negotiations (soon to be just US-Canada FTA) are going badly for Canada, and the Conservative Party is coming on strong, with criticism of support for Quebec industry when Western Canada is suffering from low energy prices and pipeline construction setbacks.

on Oct 12, 2017

I cannot see what Boeing think they are going to gain by starting a Trade War with Bombardier and the ' C ' Series Sale to Delta Airlines ? Airbus have made no complaints regarding their considerable Sales of the '737 -800 Aircraft to 'RYANAIR' possibly at prices that Airbus could get nowhere near ? Delta have got a very good deal ! that is beyond doubt and other Airlines may never be able to purchase the Aircraft at those prices, But Bombardier must be allowed to run their own business , it is nothing to do with The Boeing Aircraft company if they make a loss on everyone on them as they do not have an Aircraft in their Range or as ' Up to date ' as the 'C' Series ??

on Oct 12, 2017

The implications of the process in play raise a lot of question. What type of cash crunch is BBD at risk of if it delays Delta's delivery due to (a long, drawn out) appeals process? If the current super-cycle has come to an end, or even a long plateau, will BBD get frozen out of establishing a global market for the CSeries? Without a breadth of operators and critical market mass, there will be neither the cash nor the appetite for stretching into a CS500 and leveraging the technological advantage over the Max 8 and the A320neo. Boeing & Airbus can crank out these two like sausages and ensure the secondary market is flooded at the next downturn. Time is not on Bombardier's side, great product or not.

on Oct 12, 2017

Insightful comment, Ioannoux: freeze-out the (non-Boeing competitor) smaller C-series and there won't be the funds nor the appetite to develop the REAL competitor to Boeing's ageing lash-up 737MAX, namely the C-500. That's more and more what this issue appears to be about. Sure, 737 is cheapish, and sells, but really not a technological competitor to the A320NEO series, nor the C500. I think the old term for Boeing's tactics, aided and abetted by a protectionist US administration (in today's globalist environment, what are they thinking??!!), is 'nip it in the bud'. As though no-one is aware of the Dept of Defence teat from which US airframers suck with such enthusiasm. Subsidies? No, Bombardier has made an investment pure and simple with their discounted Delta sale, also known as a loss-leader. Business worldwide does this on a daily basis.

on Oct 12, 2017

After checking online it appears the Quebec government invested $1 Billion into the C series program last year with a 50% stake via shares issued by Bombardier. This appears similar to the GM investment by the US government who received a shareholder stake. Were any trade rules broken? I have no idea, but for a 75 plane order it seems like the bad publicity Boeing has received isn't worth it.

on Oct 12, 2017

I think, at the end of the day, that Boeing has just decided to take advantage of Trumps positions on protectionism. It would appear to me, just as jagdtiger71 states, they the Canadian government made an investment in Bombardier, for all the right reasons a government would, and should. Exactly the same way the US government made and investment in GM, and if my memory serves me correctly, Chrysler before?

Boeing lost the case with Airbus, and they will lose here too. Delta has already said they will NOT pay the tax, and why should they? The deal was done long before Trump was installed in office. How can the administration change the rules of a deal that was signed years before? Simple answer, they can’t. It’s all a ploy to get a reaction.

The 737 is an aircraft I love. But, it’s old technology, old design, and has been pushed further than it should have been in my opinion. Keeping the same type certificate requires that new technology advances are not used. Backwards thinking here Boeing. Your production costs are higher, and your product doesn’t compete in many areas of design, manufacture, maintenance, and operation arenas.

That said, the 737 platform is proven, reliable, considerably lower tech, and that could be an advantage to many operators.

on Oct 12, 2017

It all seems to be Boeing trying to bully the Canadians to the point that they will sell Bombardier- they might win and cause a few thousand lost jobs. What have they gained? Just the mistrust of everyone in Aviation-what else might they pull are any contracts safe? I am sure that when the Chinese come to the fore and they will, they will have in mind what kind of double dealing sharks Boeing are and give no quarter. Will Boeing be able to stop them? I don't think so,they could even take over the Boeing factories in China, to help them build for their own huge market. As the saying goes "What goes around ,comes around" Boeing might feel smug right now but everybody knows just how much subsidy Boeing receives; so why would China have to worry about subsidies to its factories? China will not need to sell to the USA. In fact,they may even foreclose Boeing!

on Oct 12, 2017

Very interesting forum! I think to much protectionist from USA could hurt a lot the USA. If the wold decide to help USA to get more protectionist by buying much less American product to help Trump’s way, in other way by doing over protectionist it will closed the exchange the way to do business between countries. Think also about American cars, many people who have American cars they are saying to more US cars! Trump is dangerous for USA!

on Oct 15, 2017

Claude B. This world is not national any more,what you think is made in the USA not always is! I bought a Kitchen Aid kettle-true American? Not on your life made in China, 787? a lot of component parts come from overseas, you cant build replacement factories to build these plants fast enough. Truth is TRUMP is a clown and naive to boot'

on Oct 13, 2017

It is a repeated story for the Canadians, if we recall the saga with soft wood industry the US lost three to four times to the international court, and despite the verdict in favor to Canada the US imposed unfair tariffs to the Canadian companies.

This predator approach forced some sawmills to close and gave way to American corporations to buy at low cost the Canadian remains.

In other words when the American companies cannot win or compete, they force their government to violate their own internal commercial laws to satisfy their appetite.

on Oct 15, 2017

Boeing had the President (Obama) organise the $11.5 billion deal with Vietnam!

on Oct 14, 2017

If you look at history, you will note the massive fines imposed by the USA on many banks, companies and institutions.
This has served to pull Billions into an economy that needs war to sustain it. You would think that America was blameless in the destruction of global business in the crash.
America grew rich in both world wars and seeks to keep on doing so. It may think itself united, but it is a divided group of haves and have nots with loads of bigotry and racism thrown in. Just look at how it helps its citizens after natural disasters that Trump's pull out of the Paris Climate Agreement are causing. You Reap What You Sow.

on Oct 16, 2017

Thank you fellow Aviation Enthusiasts for all your thoughts , I always feel its regretable when a Competitor will go to this sort of level in envy of a New and better Product that it has to try and destroy it before it gets established in the Market Place.

on Oct 16, 2017

There are times, that I beleave, when Boeing appears to be under the impression that only Boeing can come up with something new and sell it in the US. I can remember when Boeing put forward the idea that Nobody is going to buy or fly in a twin engine widebody jet ( Airbus A300). Also I thought that at one time Boeing owned Bombardier but got rid of it because it didnt want to build little turbo-props.
I hope that Boeing realizes just how many thousands of jobs, around the world will be lost because of this stunt. P&W will loose out on the engines, various other providers for aircraft components. The wings are being built in Ireland , How many jobs there? I suspect they don’t really give a hoot (cleaned up). To me, the only thing that will get their attention is something that will effect their bottom line.
Now here is what I can see could happen. Canada will cancel their orders for the fighters and the CH47s. They can also order Canadian airlines to not order Boeing aircraft.
Delta will not be able to take delivery of the CS100 aircraft so they will order EMB 195s and cancel the remaining orders for Boeing aircraft. They will use the money to buy A320neo,A350s, and A321 neos.
You all realize this is what Could happen, Not what WILL happen. A trade war of this type would be very bad for all concerned. Hard feelings between the US and Canada is not an option. Boeing needs to put its EGO in check and come to understand that they are NOT the only producers of aircraft, although they want to be. I will end my thoughts here and standby for all the counter arguments to come. Please understand these are only MY thoughts

on Oct 17, 2017

Airbus has just announced that they are going to manufacture and assemble the "C" Series in their plant in Alabama, USA. Airbus has bought a 50.1% share in this venture with Bombardier. Thus aircraft assembled in the USA has no Import Duty payable. Production of the C series to start soon at the Alabama plant. The 300% import duty on the C series has thus gone down the drain.

on Oct 20, 2017

One thing that cannot be denied and deserves careful consideration with regard to airlines and Boeing: they compete with the gross national product of countries and not just another airline or aircraft builder. Add to that the subject of jobs and thankfully we have a president who is sincerely interested in American jobs and the local economy. The problem we have had in the past is the global economy has been driving wages and jobs downward here. As for the president and his grip on the economy look no further than the stock market or the recent jobs report. He's doing something right although the globalists will complain. We as a Nation has been running headlong into a third world economy in massive debt and we need to do whatever it takes to turn that around.

President Trump wants this country to become the manufacturing capital of the world like it once was and I think that can happen by reducing the massive corporate taxes that have forced manufacturing to Mexico and China. He is right to renegotiated NAFTA. Perot said. "If NAFTA passes you will hear a giant sucking sound as manufacturers move out of this country". He was right!

I don't think that economy is lost to the president. Boeing builds airplanes from parts made all over the world in an effort to spread some of the wealth in this industry and likewise airlines share some of the travel revenue. I think the president has the right idea thinking America first but I am sure he understands the purchases or other defense systems from Boeing and other US manufacturers. Airlines should temper their relationships with middle east airlines and business because those airlines are government owned and tensions and relationships can change fast.

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