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F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show

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CharleyA (not verified)
on Jun 20, 2017

Apparently he hasn't flown (or doesn't remember) the slow flight / high alpha flight characteristics / nose pointing ability of the F/A-18 family. The square loop was pretty cool though.

on Jun 21, 2017

There is a much better video of the full routine including all the high Alpha maneuvers as well as a takeoff with full combat load into vertical. The high alpha flight of the F-18 is only 38 degrees... the F-35 does 50+.

on Jun 30, 2017

Can you provide a link to the video?

on Jul 2, 2017

Duh. Just so you know, Flynn flew CF-18s in Cold Lake, Alberta; Germany; and with NATO in the Yugoslav War.

on Sep 3, 2017

Flynn was a CF-18 squadron commander, an F-16 test pilot, a Typhoon test pilot, and an F-22 test pilot.

on Jun 20, 2017

Well that was underwhelming, they just dont get it do they, it is a piece of overpriced crap. What use is any of that?

on Jun 20, 2017

Thanks for your expert advice...i am sure your many hours of flight time provided you with that excellent insight

on Jun 21, 2017

Seems like your mind is made up, no matter what this plane shows it can do.

on Jun 26, 2017

+++ Pogandig : "What use is any of that?"
>>>> F-35 is the best aircraft LMCO or ANY aircraft builder ever did : it's still not operational at all and already earned $440 billions!

on Jun 26, 2017

At US$80M fly-away per aircraft, it's actually cheaper than any competitor even approaching its capabilities. But nice try, chelovek.

on Jun 27, 2017

$80M without engine and everything to rebuild. There is NO WAY to hope for a working F-35A under $130M and ONLY if about +3000 are ordered which won't happen as next year, they'll be banned from flying the EU, thanks to new environmental law about aircraft noise. Thus, EU countries will also be banned from betting Tu-95 Bear : we make no discrimination and treat US the same as Russia ;-)

Exact : Rafale doesn't approaches its capabilities : Rafale is outstandingly overwhelming its capabilities : it's already a 5.5th generation aircraft and according to F/A-XX wishlist, will have no problems to be upgraded at such level.
Champagne!

And BTW, we're not fooled by attacks on our energy procurement and I'm not only speaking about the coup in Ukraine, the shenanigans to have Poland blocking the Yamal pipeline, the threats of sanction against EU companies participating the building of Northstream or Southstream pipelines but also the Algeria/Niger/Nigeria/Ivory-Cost system with US allied with KSA/Turkey/Qatar to force the Qatari gas through Syria but, face reality, Qatar is the main backer for Muslim Brotherhood and Qaeda while Turkey is led by MB (and helped smuggling Libyan Sarin in Syria to create false flag), then we have Tunisian MB backing groups of jihadists like AQIM, al-Murabitoun and An-Sardine and well, Boko Haram as a split-off from AQ having joined IS and, how surprise, they cause troubles in the aforementioned countries. You may point Mali and Chad were also touched. Guess what? Areva has our uranium mines here.
So I return this to you :
Nice try al-Zawahiri! I think we should consider serious sanctions on some of our so-called "allies" that have teamed with terrorist states and we also can only notice the crazy sales of US weapons here and due to a 17% of GDB spent in the military, I think that it's actually cool that we built a totally independent nuclear force and thanks to Germany rising expense, a part will be used to re-activate the megaton yield warheads in storage.
The F-35 ban will push the Rafale sales and well, I think we should consider that the May 17th announced EU-Army will drop NATO and, just think how our Russian neighbour already proposed more than once to team to eradicate terrorists, well, at least they do it on a daily basis, they don't let down their friends and also do not backstab 'em and it's not due to their shenanigans that our police foils about 1.5 terror attack a day in my sole country and we also end with a refugee crisis. As Kerry said US let IS rushing into Syria in order to pressure Assad into negotiating (understand : letting the Qatar to EU pipeline transit into Syria) and Assad, instead, called Putin, as pressure is put on us,we should also consider to call Putin.

on Jul 1, 2017

Noise Regulations don't apply to Government aircraft. You as an aviation expert should know that.

If they would affect government aircraft, then all Eurofighters, Mirages, Rafales, E-3s, B-1, B-52 would be banned from European Airports.

Better call NATO, to remind them that 90% of their fleet will soon be grounded due to nois regulations ;-)

on Jul 1, 2017

I think you totally missed the point!
On May 17th, J.C Juncker AKA POTEU announced that the start for EU-Army was given, HQs are even already being built in Belgium. Actually, the only thing that prevented such building was UK AKA 'the Yankee Poodle'.
Money will firstly be pooled for drones, aircraft and robots.

It will only ban very noisy aircraft so Tu-95 will be banned and so F-35 will.
In other terms, EU-AF will buy EU-made jetfighters...
Laws aren't retroactive and, about NATO, you can consider that... we hope Trump's gonna pull out as he threatened : it'll make things much easier, especially when Russia will enter the EU...

on Jun 20, 2017

Mr. Flynn seems to lack ability to reality.

on Jun 20, 2017

Nothing says "effective fighter" like good low-speed manners.

on Jun 20, 2017

Considering CAS is part of its role it's pretty important.

on Jun 21, 2017

I'm pretty sure the F-35 isn't designed to do "close" air support anywhere close to the ground forces. It doesn't fly low and slow like an A-10 where it might be shot down by small arms fire. Instead it status high, relies on stealth and altitude to avoid getting shot down, and deploys precision munitions where requested by ground forces. That's a form of CAS, but it doesn't involve the sort of low and slow flying that looks good at air shows.

on Jun 21, 2017

I'm pretty sure the concept of "Close Air Support" as evolved over the many years it's been used to incorporate tactics that are a result of technology that didn't exist "back in the day". Called "progress". "Close" is a relative term, "Air" hasn't changed nor has "Support".

I'd opine that in combat "what looks god at air shows" is not high on the list of pilots who are in the business of delivering ordinance on target.

on Jun 21, 2017

ROFCIBC, if you look at the history of the opening days of all air wars since 1939, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Yom Kippur, The Falklands et al, you will see that all the magic kit that was supposed to give one side or the other "the winning advantage" failed to work properly. It is going to be fun in an F-35 trying to find some bad guys with all the data and threat warning systems going bananas, a Forward Air Controller trying to guide him onto a target and the bad buggers shooting at him. Hope we have got enough supermen to fill the cockpits. Just a thought from an old and ancient Royal Air Force fighter pilot.

on Jun 21, 2017

Rule No 1 for fighter pilots:-

Keep as much energy as you can. If you don't you will die.

Flying slowly simply makes you an air to ground target for your opponent.

on Jun 26, 2017

The F-35 can't win. When it was regarded as entirely a BVR fighter with no ability to do furballs close-in, that was bad. Now we see it's got a good close-in aerobatic repertoire, "Speed is Life" comes up. Sheesh.

on Jun 28, 2017

"with no ability to do furballs close-in, that was bad. Now we see it's got a good close-in aerobatic repertoire, "Speed is Life" comes up. Sheesh".
>>>> Have you ever seen a F8F Bearcat or P-51 Mustang aerobatics?
youtube.com/watch?v=kGCy_kl311g
Even A-4 Skyhawk is more nervous while carrying droptanks!!!
youtube.com/watch?v=WwyezPVxrsg
A-4 vs Mig-17 in an air-show :
youtube.com/watch?v=wcHsmJ_EoT0
Moreover, A-35 can't even launch weapons if flying faster than 550kts!
Actually, bring an old A-4, put active cancellation in the camel's back of some versions, add QWIP IRST and integrate modern weapons then you get something at least as good as F-35 for cheaper than dirt!
I think that it wouldn't be necessary to integrate more than Mica-IR as AAM as it'd be enough to outrange A-35 or F-22 detection.
Rather than A-35, I think that Yak-130/Alenia M346 is a best bang for the buck on condition of being cleverly equipped.

on Jul 1, 2017

A combat aircraft isn't anything like the 1957- Ford Thunderbird that you shoved a 5.0 Coyote DOHC Electronic Fuel Engine engine into. You just buy the parts off the shelf, bolt on and go.

Obliviously you have never pulled the panels off of any fighter/attack aircraft. The avionics bay is crammed full of gear and there isn't any space left over for much of anything. You say pull all that old junk out and replace it with new stuff. Ok, now you have just created three new problems - you shifted the aircraft's CG by the weight change, the new equipment has to be integrated into the aircraft's systems, and then it has to be flight qualified to operate in a flight envelope that the pilot can survive in. Adding new sensors and armament means lots of new wiring and black boxes that have to be accommodated. With most aircraft, that means the airframe gets gutted to run the wiring for the new gear. Maybe there isn't a way to monkey with the CG enough to get it where it needs to be because of the weight shift all the new gear brings when configured for combat conditions..

On top of that the A4D had a J-52 rated at 9,300 lfb thrust. Pushing a 24,500 max takeoff weight calculates out to 2.63lbs of aircraft per pound of thrust generated by the engine. You say, no problem, we will put a bigger engine in it. Bigger engine means more fuel consumption plus more strain on the airframe. We'll fix the fuel consumption problem and thrust problem with a new fanjet engine. Great idea, but doesn't fit in the engine bay - small core on the basic engine, which is OK, but there is no way to make the fan fit. On top of that the engine air intake area is too small for an engine with a fan that makes a serious contribution to the overall thrust.

Now you have some small idea of why a clean sheet, new design aircraft like the F-35 is the way to Go. It is better to have the end specs in mind that to try and redesign an old wheel to fit your modern cart...

on Jun 20, 2017

I was expecting to see something awful based on the comments so far. Looked awfully good to me though. But at this point it could have launched itself in to space and the people here would have been critical of it.

on Jun 20, 2017

The square loop maneuver is more impressive when watching an F/A-18 do it.

However the point ability is actually pretty impressive post stall; the first non- vectored aircraft I have seen do it well enough. The point is that the test pilot is showing that with the HMS, advanced IR view all-round, he simply "looks" at the bad guy over his shoulder, or through his legs, gets "lock"; then pulls the nose "close enough" and lets the 9x do the rest. Does not have to have supermaneuverability of a MiG 29 SMT to do fancy loop-on-loops which look great... it appears to be enough to get the first shot no matter where the bad guy is when WVR.

If the -35 needs to be dogfighting anyways, something will have gone wrong... again, NO ONE in their right mind, and certainly no air force wants to base their primary A/A tactics on post merge in the days of HMS and over-the-shoulder IR shot which everyone now has in an actual shooting contest. Dogfighting is still a great skill for pilots to stroke their own massive egos. However, no matter what the aircraft, your odds of winning will be no better than 50/50. The best you may get is 60/40 of winning.

on Jun 26, 2017

Dogfighting's not something an F-35 driver ought to relish, but it's useful to be able to do it.. when you have to. Not stressing dogfighing skills is a doctrinal gap Russian-mentored opponents have exploited time and time again. I hope that we don't go there again.

on Jul 1, 2017

Jkden, finally someone who knows what their talking about.

I questioned why this platform needed a gun. Air Force doctrine required it so we made it so per our requirements.

Great platform satisfying three US services, international, stealth, maneurability, survivability, suppotability, affordability (regardless of critics given aforementioned requirements) and looks.

on Jun 20, 2017

Let's see any, and I mean any, other fighter other than the F-22 put on a demo even approaching this with all counter measure, sensor and other electronic systems on board. You won't, because they can't.

AN
on Jun 21, 2017

Comment system does not let me post links so Google this:
"Dassault’s Rafale Fighter Performs Validation Flight at Paris Air Show 2017 - AINtv Express"
Rafale with all its sensors, electronic systems and countermeasures on board performing at the same air-show basically the same maneuvers as the F-35 only at high speed.

on Jun 26, 2017

My opinion of the F-35 just improved dramatically. Seeing this sort of thing is much better than reading "but the pilots really love it!" You get the idea they really do after seeing someone make this machine go through impressive hoops.

on Jun 28, 2017

For sure : A-35 showed it can manoeuvre like an A-4, although A-4 was more nervous. This is meowful! Awesome! This is outstandish to see that now, Lockheed can build aircraft as manoeuvrable as Douglas 60 years ago! It took them time but they ended succeeding. Now, you used to pay $860k for an A-4, so buying 150 A-4 for the price of a single A-35, I'd consider 15,000 A-4 instead of 100 A-35 : 2552 A-35 will carry at best 5104 AAM : victory by swarm!

on Jun 20, 2017

The trolls say it can't turn. Then it does a rudder turn on a dime that no fourth gen fighter can do. Now the trolls say what good are low speed maneuvers. Just shut up. I can tell you someone yanked his leash. He was "sandbagging" that routine.

on Jun 21, 2017

Do a rudder turn in actual air to air combat and you will die. What is done at an airshow has no relevance to way you need to fly in combat. It's run by the PR department to make the public go "Wow" and spend more money on over-engineered kit and put money into shareholders pockets.

on Jun 26, 2017

Actually, the trolls praise F-35...

on Jun 26, 2017

Iznogood on Jun 26, 2017 "Actually, the trolls praise F-35..."

You do? THAT'S news.

on Jun 28, 2017

No! YOU do! I just inform people on how A-35 will put EU's security and also industry in jeopardy, making us easy preys for the 4th Reich which is actually working with their GCC allies to deprive us of our energy procurements. Moreover, with the backdoors ALIS has, those who stupidly bought A-35 will end with their fleet grounded by Washington when GCC monarch will launch jihad against them with F-15SA as air support.
Do you know what TRAITOR means?

on Jun 20, 2017

It still weighs as much as a F-15 with 15,000# less thrust.

on Jun 20, 2017

What can you expect for $100,000,000 and only 15 years R&D!

on Jun 20, 2017

You keep your 15000 pounds of excess thrust in the f-15 and I'll keep my stealth and sensor fusion in the f-35 along with my 8 to 0 kill record against the f-15.

on Jun 20, 2017

Actually, no, you are wrong. Don't you feel embarrassed writing something that is just plain wrong?

The F-35 has about 2000 lb less dry thrust and about 4000 lbs less on burners than an F-15C and about 2000 lbs higher empty weight. But the F-35 also has a clean configuration in stealth mode so much less drag.

Further, the F-35 wasn't designed as a single mission air superiority fighter so TW ratio isn't really very important. Compared to the F-15E-- a fairer comparison -- the F-35 has pretty competitive TW.

If the F-35 needs to turn and burn with another fighter, it will be able to do it fairly well but it shouldn't have to do so. It will have fantastic situational awareness and it will be killing the enemy from tens of miles away. The enemy will never know that it is there until its wingman blows up.

on Jun 26, 2017

"It will have fantastic situational awareness and it will be killing the enemy from tens of miles away. The enemy will never know that it is there until its wingman blows up."
>>>> You should inform on QWIP IRST... 1st generation could already lock a supercruising F-22 (frontal) from at least 270km and we have aircraft equipped with it in Europe since 2001! Now 2nd generation is operated since 2015 or 2016... And remember, Europe goes from the Atlantic to the Ural so even the Russians have this fielded (1st gen) with OLS-50...
Never heard about R-37M? Didn't it shot a target at... 398km and flies Mach6?
Rafale has sensor fusion for a while. Even the Russians have this too and all don't even have to turn to burn another aircraft as they're not stuck with AMRAAM or Sidewinder : all shoot missiles behind their shoulders!
All also have reduced RCS but adding active cancellation, meaning that mostly all radar signature, incl. external payload is simply nullified! I'm not even speaking about thrust cooling or baked-in radar absorbent materials allowing the use of anti-IR paint and worst case scenario, L-band radars on Mig-31BM, PAK/FA, S-300 to S-500...

Actually, as the kinda stealth you have on F-35, F-22 but also J-20 and J-31 is void which, without the 'plausible denial' AKA blatant lie about the F-117 downed by the Serbs, thus totally minimising the consequences, such programs could have been scrapped on the spot. It'd even had been a better bang for the buck to create an armed modern version of SR-71 or reboot the F-108 Rapier project.

It would have been MUCH cheaper to licence build Rafale-C/B for USAF and Rafale-M for USN/USMC (it's also STOBAR-OK). The most pitiful is that the habitual US navel-gazing, despite everybody is warning them, ends with the end of US air-superiority and, as they totally ruined their relation with the EU and with Russia trying to deprive the first of more than 50% of its supply in natural gas and Russia of 80% of its exports, thus causing the death of more than half of a million people, I think that there'll be no help neither from Frenchs nor from Russians to avoid the long overdue spanking to come after decades of bullying against so many countries, none of them having ever attacked the USA and it included many regime changes putting democracies under the iron fist of tyrants, including recently in Ukraine.

on Jun 20, 2017

The Russians have been doing better than this since what? the late 90's?

Boring plane to say the least.

on Jun 20, 2017

I love to watch Russian fighters at airshows.

The Su-27/35 and Mig 29/35 series are as maneuverable as Fokker Triplanes and they'll survive about as long in modern air combat as a WWI fighter.

on Jun 26, 2017

su35 on Jun 20, 2017
"The Russians have been doing better than this since what? the late 90's?
Boring plane to say the least."

'S matter? They cut back on the budget over in St. Petersburg?

Guess it is boring to have to cut back to a single line of BS, now there's visual evidence the F-35 can turn and burn.

on Jul 1, 2017

Except it can turn only at a speed where any 70+ years old Mustang would transform it into a colander... Even a A-4 is more nervous!
About St. Petersburg :
I can't wait until the Russians join us in the EU! As Franois Hollande said for BrExit : the sooner, the better!

on Jun 20, 2017

Would gimballed weapons obviate the need for such high performance to point the whole aircraft at the target? Just point the weapons instead of the whole aircraft, like on a B-29 bomber.

Rob
on Jun 21, 2017

In about 10 years high power tactical lasers will do the same...

on Jun 26, 2017

Gimballed weapons destroy the 'clean' configuration that makes stealth possible and create aerodynamic drag.

Even an "arsenal plane" (say, a B-1) should fly as "clean" as it could.

on Jun 28, 2017

This is the flawed stealth you use, CIA had it from Soviet technical papers and Soviets got it from the Nazis, the 1st test was on the Horten Ho-IX prototype using a mix of glue and charcoal to get a conductive non-metallic coating. It's simply a Faraday cage.
The most amusing thing is that active cancellation premises began in 1958 in... the US! Well, it wasn't greatly effective so US gave up while we pursued researches. Well it's a little like IRST being seen as an European gadget while it made F-22's stealth useless even before it entered service.
Thus, things weren't really hot for US aircraft as only EU had long range IRST technology but due to US shenanigans to deprive us of about half of our natural gas imports and at the same time, to humiliate Russia and moreover, ruin their economy, well, look : we cancelled the sales of Mistral ships due to US leverage, threatening BNP (biggest French bank) of a $9bln fine... But we transferred the technology to the Russians. How do you think they now end having active cancellation and QWIP IRST? The numerous times you cheated your oldest ally has a price. We won't forgive USA's treasons, and there wasn't just one.

on Jun 20, 2017

Well that was underwhelming, the only thing that makes this aircraft of any use today is its standoff capability and that has nothign to do wioth the aircraft itself. We could have put the standoff electoonics on a crgo A/C and saved a ton of money.

Seems that everyone is trying VERY hard to justify this expensive A/C and it does not come very easy.

One does think they are trying way to hard, and that makes everyone very nervous that they are pulling th woll over our eyes

Why have they not had an INDEPENDENT group validate its value.

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